Crossing Many Rainbows

I should think about this some.  There are a lot of words frequently applied to this “group” of religious/spiritual paths, I guess you would call it, that I don’t identify with, and I know why I don’t identify with them, because mostly they don’t apply.  But the word “pagan” does apply, and is…the “proper” term, I guess, for what I am?  I’m not sure why I don’t identify with it, though, because it’s a word I rather like.  Hm. Things to meditate on, probably.

danceswithfaeriesunderthemoon:

n.n

Like/Reblog if this applies to you so that i can follow.

Heathen/Pagan here. Always happy to have new followers. ^_^

anshinwrites:

hickiesandhotpants:

bubblegumcat:

theysayshesadykebutiknow:

Could you sign this petition? :)

It’s so California can’t take away Wiccan/Pagan rights under Freedom of Religion, which means that Pagan/Wiccans would be able to get fired from their jobs for the religions, and discriminated against in many other ways that would be legal.

It would mean a lot to me. 

xx

Ley

Please sign this. It would mean so much to me since I live in California and I’m a Wiccan. <3

p.s. is there a way to sign the petition without creating an account? idgi.

I am a pagan, and this is bullshit.  (I don’t live in California and I am not a pagan of the witchy sort, but it seems this applies to all sorts of paganism? and I know how fast shit like this spreads.)

Go sign it.

So if anyone makes another response to my questions about cultural appropriation in relation to Marvel comics and Tolkien, it might be a bit before I get back to you.  I appreciate the discussion, though!  It’s interesting.

loveoflopt:

heathenqueer:

Though I do agree with quite a lot of the rest of your post, I have to wonder if it still qualifies as disrespecting the myths when the Thor comics pay homage to those myths, and do so accurately.  (Admittedly, it’s not all the time that they do this, because ultimately, yes, it is a different world.)  I suppose at the end of it, I don’t think we can claim that all Thor comics (and all the myriad writers who have worked on them) are appropriative.

This raises several questions. First, of course, does Thor pay homage or does it just rip them off? That is a big question. And why can’t homage be disrespectful? Plenty of people pay “homage” to “native spirituality” in incredibly disrespectful ways- saying “I’m doing this to honor them” doesn’t remove the chance of being appropriative. I’m sure that Disney would say ‘Pocahontas’ was supposed to be, in part, an homage to Matoaka- but that movie is appropriative and racist because it grossly misrepresents everything.

Oh yeah, I definitely don’t disagree with this.  Like I said, maybe it’s just me, personally, but in my own mind, I don’t particularly find those comics that do retell actual myths or make reference to the actual myths to be disrespectful.  But again, I am probably full of Unpopular Opinions on the subject.

Now, the fact that there are multiple authors on Thor makes it more complicated- one author/artist may be appropriative while another may not be. The earlier ones may be better/worse than the later ones. I don’t care to read them to find out.

To be honest, I’ve read very few of the Thor comics, but yeah.  And it’s not even a matter of just looking at the various writers.  We have to consider whether the original creator’s intent (that being Stan Lee) was appropriative, or whether his influence makes everyone else’s intent appropriative whether they are properly educated and accurately representing the subject or not.  Plus there’s at any given time seven or eight people who work on a comic.  Writers, pencillers, colourists, editors, etc., and we therefore have several people whose backgrounds and personal relation to the subject to discuss before we could decide on an objective level whether any given comic was appropriative or not.  It’s complicated indeed.

However, things like changing relationships between deities, changing status, etc makes it complicated. What little I’ve seen of the Marvelverse Thor, it is not what I would call an homage to the Norse Myths. The movieverse certainly is not.

Maybe not.  ”Homage” might even be the wrong word for it.  But I personally don’t see it as offensive.  That’s not to say that nobody else has the right to find it offensive—I just rather dislike it being blanketed as appropriative when not everybody finds it so.

I dunno.  I have a rather complicated argument for why I, personally, don’t find it problematic, but again.  I’ll explain that later, because it’s not directly relevant to the argument at hand.

chameleonarcher:

The answer here is very simple: Because Thor and Lord of the Rings do not do the same thing with the source material.

Thor carves out figures, events, places and stories, rips them out of their original worldview and context, and plops them down in a new one with little to no regard for the original.

Tolkien, on the other hand, was a scholar of those cultures and mythologies. He deeply respected them and loved them so much so that they inspired his creative genius. He did not take actual figures of of the mythology and transplant them into Middle-earth and try to give them a new context. Also, it would be pretty difficult to culturally appropriate your own cultural inheritance, and Norse/Scandinavian myth and worldview were a great influence on Anglo-Saxon England. In its original concept, Middle-earth was supposed to be the mythological England and while Tolkien abandoned that goal as the story evolved, its roots in the mythology and linguistics remained.

Thor is a rewriting of stories and characters from the mythology, and a watered down and over simplified one at that. Lord of the Rings is based in the worldview and the Norse/Scandinavian mythos as a whole. The Norse gods and stories do not exist in Middle-earth, but Norse culture and language influence the cultural landscapes of Middle-earth, and that influence is born out of research and respect for the source culture, which is not present in the Thor franchise.

The thing about Tolkien not appropriating his own cultural inheritance is that…okay, I am looking for a way to word this.  Forgive me if I stumble.  If we were talking about anybody else writing about a religion that was not theirs—especially in the case that their religion was one that had usurped or even wiped out the one they were writing about or studying—then it would be considered appropriative, yes?  Tolkien was Catholic.  The term “Heathen”, to the best of my knowledge, is a term created by Christians to describe the pagan people from which we get these myths.  That’s part of the reason I see it as problematic, I suppose.

I mean, his being an academic scholar and studying the mythology doesn’t exactly forgive him, even though he might know more about it than the people working for Marvel.

For instance: from what I’ve seen in talks of other oppressed groups, academia does not give you free reign to talk about a group you don’t belong to, especially in the case of having more privilege than the group you study.  E.G. being a straight person who is a major in Queer Studies does not mean you cannot be appropriative when talking about or writing about queer culture.  I don’t know if that comparison works in this situation, but I still see a problem with it.

Though I do agree with quite a lot of the rest of your post, I have to wonder if it still qualifies as disrespecting the myths when the Thor comics pay homage to those myths, and do so accurately.  (Admittedly, it’s not all the time that they do this, because ultimately, yes, it is a different world.)  I suppose at the end of it, I don’t think we can claim that all Thor comics (and all the myriad writers who have worked on them) are appropriative.

But I have my own views on that which are probably a highly unpopular opinion. Oh well.

Thank you very much for the response!

Something else I’ve been thinking about for a few days.  I’ve been meaning to write up a long and proper post about it but I just haven’t had the brainpower to do all the research I need to do to properly cite my sources.  Anyway.  Gonna start the conversation on it anyway.

Please note: this is not directed at anybody in particular; it’s something that kind of snowballed from some stuff I saw around Tumblr then started considering in a broader context and went “waaaait a minute”.

So.

I’ve seen quite a lot of people (on Tumblr, on LJ, all around the web) who are quite upset about Marvel’s Thor, especially with the movie having just come out and put the franchise on the radar of a lot more people.  Mostly people who either are Heathens or who have an academic/cultural interest in Norse mythology, and who feel that Marvel’s Thor is appropriative and offensive.

I’ve not seen a single person say the same about Tolkien’s works (Lord of the Rings and the like), which with The Hobbit movie coming up kind of confuses me.

Is it because not as many people are interested in The Hobbit as were interested in Thor?  Is it because Thor is so much more obvious about being based on Norse mythology?  Because Tolkien’s works are more subtle?  Is it because Tolkien’s works are considered classics?  

(If we want to get technical, Marvel’s Thor comics have been around almost as long as The Lord of the Rings; the first character appearance of Thor came out in 1962, and LotR was published in 1954.  The Hobbit was published much earlier, but still.  I think the point stands, if the criteria is that LotR has been around longer.)

I’m not really sure what the difference is, myself.  I’ve asked a couple of friends, and they seem just as baffled as I am.

I’m speaking as a Heathen, as an LotR fan, and as a Marvel fan.

I’m just curious as to what the difference is, why Marvel’s Thor is called appropriative of Norse mythology while Tolkien’s works are completely forgiven/overlooked.  Seems odd.

scar-lip:

Yes, I’m aware there are those who are cool with it. That, um, okay, see, let’s check out the “Derailing for Dummies**” entry on it.That’s, that’s great. Personally, as a Lokean, I’m far more bothered by how difficult it makes finding resources about the actual Norse deities, but since other people find it appropriation- I’ve got no right to say it isn’t.

Also, on the subject of “I know soemone who disagrees”- it’s not necessarily the same thing. I’m not really sure if people who are Norse revivalists/something like that can appropraite that. It’s their religion. And please, please, please don’t bring up “But XYZ famous thing portrays Christianity wrong”- yeah, the society that Thor is primarily made for (USA) is primarily Christian, privileges Christianity, is making/not making laws because Christians say so, Christian holy days and ideals and such are all part of our society- most people have a basic knowledge of Christianity and what it actually is. Most people have nowhere that level of knowledge about Norse deities or those who worship/honor them.

Pointing this out.

*I’m still sick, okay, i can’t remember what it’s— revivalist! Whoo! I hope that’s right. I should be asleep…

**Am I the only person who finds this title ablist?

I’ve had a few things to say about this for a few days, and I think I might have to make a post about it later.

Obviously, as you point out, I can’t tell anybody that their view is wrong—if you’re an Asatruar/Heathen/Odinist/Germanic Pagan and you find it appropriative, then you’re right.  If you’re an Asatruar/Heathen/Odinist/Germanic Pagan and you think it’s not appropriative, then you’re also right.

IDK.  I’ve been thinking on this quite a lot lately, as both a Heathen and a Marvel fan.  I personally don’t find it appropriative at all, and I still love Marvel and Marvel’s Thor just as much.

I’m still hesitant to write a post about it because some of the things I have to say are probably gonna lose me followers and/or cause a kerfuffle, but whatever.

Anyway.  Yeah.  Reblogging because I’ve been thinking about it too.

gaiasgifts:

This is a feminine rune of intuitive knowledge. Whenever you draw this rune it is advising you to follow your intuitions. Psychic ability is high. This is especially true if Perdhro is in the cast. It may mean that you are being guided or protected by higher forces. (It is unlikely that you are aware of them.) It may also mean a prophetic dream. In relationships, this rune represents the woman. Finding this rune in a cast indicates that by use of your intuitions and imagination, you are capable of dealing with any problems that may arise. In a mans reading, it represents a strong and supportive female in his life. This rune represents good memory and success in learning. It shows use of your imagination. Things will go your way. Lagaz indicates a time of relaxing, cleansing and re-evaluating your life. In the result position of a spread, it means that others will be sympathetic, understanding and helpful (especially when paired with Mannaz).

Lagaz Reversed
Lagaz Reversed is an indication of a period of confusion in your life. You may be making wrong decisions and misjudgments that will poorly affect your actions. Lack of creativity and feelings of being in a rut are indicated. This is a bad sign unless surrounded by positive runes. You will be or already were misled by your intuition into something you can’t handle. Temptation to do the wrong thing, or to take the easy way out is strong. Get out of any bad situation as fast as you can (unless Lagaz Reversed is surrounded by delay runes ). Lagaz Reversed often warns you that there is a woman (no matter what your gender) who will bring trouble (including betrayal or backstabbing) into your life. You will recognize her as someone with neurotic tendencies. If the runecast is otherwise positive, it might mean a strong female who will help you, though she will no doubt ask you to make it up later. If Lagaz Reversed is paired with Perdhro, you have failed or are failing to use your wisdom and instincts.

Converse: Beware mariners or others associated with water who may be trying to trick you.

Correspondences
Alternate Names: Laaz, Logr, Lagu, Logur, Laukr
Ancient Meaning: Life energy, growth
Keywords: Fluidity, life force, birth
Description: Laguz is the feminine Rune. It denotes a deep sexuality and fertility. Laguz also represents that which is ever changing and renewal. You may be in a tremendous spiritual growth period.
Reversed Description:Laguz reversed foretells a period of stagnation, sensual numbness and lack of creativity.
Astrological Correspondence: Moon
Tarot Correspondence: The Star
Gods/Goddesses: Njord, Ran
Color: Dark Blue-Green
Tree: Willow
Herb: Leek
Stones: Aquamarine, Azurite, Calcite, Chrysocolla
Animals: Swan, seal, sea gull, duck, whale, dolphin, otter, beaver
Element: Water
Magic: Expansion of physical and spiritual life, Comprehends and assimilates your emotions and desires. Negative energy is discarded, Unwanted patterns are washed away, Increased awareness

My favourite rune.  I feel a lot of connection to this one.

I was on my way home, one of the only times I’ve been alone in quite a while, and I decided to speak up and ask Freyr if there was something he wanted from me.  I told him I was willing to talk, he just needed to give me a sign that he wanted to.

I rounded the corner half a minute later and was stopped by four deer, a mother and three just-older-than-spotted fawns, crossing the road.

…well then.

Seems my intuition was correct.  I’ve told him I’m open to conversation whenever he is, and all he has to do is ask.  Though I certainly will try to set up a proper time to talk to him very soon.

I’m amused, and also…slightly delighted, I admit.

loveoflopt:

Regarding Fenrir’s being bound. Mostly it came about of me musing that the reason werewolves are weak to silver is due to Fenrir.

Odin- We had the dwarves cast a binding out of impossible materials that can’t be broken!
Loki- Impossible materials? Like what?
Odin- the noise a cat makes when it moves, the beard of a woman, the roots of a mountain, the sinews of a bear, the breath of a fish, and the spittle of a bird.
Loki- All of those exist… and would not make a very good chain
Odin- Don’t be ridiculous, the dwarves assured us!

Loki (in dokkkalfheim)- So, what did you really use to bind my son?
The dwarves: Fuck off, scar lip before we claim what’s rightfully ours. (his head)

Loki:

I may have deserved that.

Loki (to his son): So… what did they actually use to bind you?
Fenrir: Silver.
Loki: …. You’re joking, right? That’s incredibly common. I could break that right now.
Fenrir: *waits for the attempt, shakes his head* Magically reinforced silver, dad, do you really think me so weak?
Loki: That would make sense.

Love this. XD I need to get Tyro to post up the link to myths written in more modern language as soon as she gets her spirituality blog up and running.  Because stuff like this amuses me to no end.  And I like things being more easily read and understood and accessible.  (Besides, just as with translating any work of literature, it’s always interesting to see the translator’s take on things.)

loveoflopt:

heathenqueer:

loveoflopt:

There’s a mythology wiki that says that Jormungandr is the snake dripping the poison onto Loki after he’s bound to the rock.

…

There’s adding insult to injury and then there’s unnecessary cruelty. Especially when the crime was pointing out a long list of undisputed misdeeds of the Aesir.

I’m going to go with the “But he’s stuck on midgard with his tail in his mouth- how could he drip poison on anyone when the snake is always shown with its mouth open and unfettered?

Except Loki was bound at the beginning of Ragnarok, and if I’m remembering my mythology correctly, part of what triggers the world falling apart is that Jormungandr lets go of its tail.  So it makes sense, imo.

IDK, sometimes it’s Jormungandr, sometimes it isn’t.  There’s lots of snakes in Norse mythology, seems like.  Lots of HUGE ones, no less.

But his coming unbound is part of what triggers it as well. He’s bound until Ragnarok, and when he comes unbound he’ll lead the Jotunn against the Aesir. His binding is start of the catalyst because he has to be bound to become unbound, but it’s not at the start of Ragnarok I don’t think. Most people talk of him being bound until Ragnarok…

I’ve looked into it- apparently you get really big freaking snakes in Scandinavia, so, there’s that. I guess they have to be that big to survive the cold? I don’t know hwo that works. Iceland doesn’t allow snakes… it makes me very sad.

But yeah, the Aesir had just had it with Loki.  I think the version I read said that the crime he was being punished for was murdering Balder, but again, seems like there are different versions of it.  (And given Ragnarok is a cyclical event, it’s possible and even probable that all versions are true.)

The bigger crime seemed to have been Lokasenna. Never crash an Aesir dinner party.

Right, yeah, that’s true.  There’s this whole big messy area between “the beginning of the beginning of Ragnarok” and “the ACTUAL beginning of Ragnarok”.  So.  Yeah.

That would explain it.  Also, how can a country not allow snakes?  Do they just…not allow them as pets, or do they exterminate them in the wild?  That’s confusing.  (Or maybe I’m just misinterpreting.

Also, yes.  That last bit.  I’m quoting you on that if I ever get asked about it. XD